Discussion:
Declension of thou
(too old to reply)
Xakero
2013-12-20 22:21:52 UTC
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I searched the web some more and I think I should be: "Know ye, of which thou speak'st". Have I got it right?
Xakero
2013-12-20 22:37:13 UTC
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The more I search, the more uncertain I get. Now I am wondering if it should be "Know thou, whereof thou speak'st". Ye seems to be second person plural, but I want my sentence to be second person singular.
Don Phillipson
2013-12-21 15:01:15 UTC
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. . . I am wondering if it should be "Know thou, whereof thou speak'st".
Ye seems to be second person plural, but I want my sentence to be
second person singular.
Confirmed:
Ye = 2nd person plural
Thou = 1st person singular, nominative or vocative case.
Thee = 1st person singular, accusative/objective case.

But it is not clear why the OP wishes to write in an obsolete form.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Steve Hayes
2013-12-21 01:40:42 UTC
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I know thou, thee, thy, thine, but I'm not sure if thee is correct in the sentence "Know thee, whereof thou speak'st" with the meaning "Be
"Thee" is accusative case, except for traditional Quakers, who for some
theo,logical reason used it more widely.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
George Hardy
2013-12-21 13:37:39 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
I know thou, thee, thy, thine, but I'm not sure if thee is correct in the sentence "Know thee, whereof thou speak'st" with the meaning "Be
"Thee" is accusative case, except for traditional Quakers, who for some
theo,logical reason used it more widely.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Accusative and dative. Thine = yours (singular, familiar)
Misused in the Battle Hymn of the Republic, as sung today.

GFH
Whiskers
2013-12-21 16:17:49 UTC
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I know thou, thee, thy, thine, but I'm not sure if thee is correct in
the sentence "Know thee, whereof thou speak'st" with the meaning "Be
sure you know what you are talking about"
Compare, singular:-

I - me - my - mine

thou - thee - thy - thine

plural:-

we - us - our - ours

you - you - your - yours

"ye" is a variant of "you". Some speakers say "ouren" and "youren"
instead of "ours" and "yours".

The first person singular is rarely used in modern English; so rarely
that when it is, the verb often takes an archaic "...[e]st" suffix
in the 'vocative' or 'interrogative' cases.

Some regional dialects have a similar pattern of usage to the French
"vous/tu" based on relative status or familial connection or affection.

Some people use the first person singular rigorously when addressing
only one person, for philosophical or logical reasons. "Quakers" and
some other religious groups are the best known examples of this; the
popular Bible translation originating in the early 17th century and
known as "The Authorised Version" (AV) or "King James Version" (KJV)
also does this, mostly.

So your "know thee whereof thou speakest" is essentially 'correct', the
verb 'to know' being used in the 'vocative' case and 'to speak' being
'nominative'. This is one of the relics of the time when English was
more fully 'inflected'.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Whiskers
2013-12-21 18:50:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whiskers
I know thou, thee, thy, thine, but I'm not sure if thee is correct in
the sentence "Know thee, whereof thou speak'st" with the meaning "Be
sure you know what you are talking about"
Compare, singular:-
I - me - my - mine
thou - thee - thy - thine
plural:-
we - us - our - ours
you - you - your - yours
"ye" is a variant of "you". Some speakers say "ouren" and "youren"
instead of "ours" and "yours".
The first person singular is rarely used in modern English; so rarely
[...]
Post by Whiskers
Some people use the first person singular rigorously when addressing
[...]

Correction: "thee" "you" etc are second person, not first! I don't
know how I got that wrong.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Tom P
2013-12-22 23:25:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whiskers
I know thou, thee, thy, thine, but I'm not sure if thee is correct in
the sentence "Know thee, whereof thou speak'st" with the meaning "Be
sure you know what you are talking about"
Compare, singular:-
I - me - my - mine
thou - thee - thy - thine
plural:-
we - us - our - ours
you - you - your - yours
"ye" is a variant of "you". Some speakers say "ouren" and "youren"
instead of "ours" and "yours".
The first person singular is rarely used in modern English; so rarely
that when it is, the verb often takes an archaic "...[e]st" suffix
in the 'vocative' or 'interrogative' cases.
Some regional dialects have a similar pattern of usage to the French
"vous/tu" based on relative status or familial connection or affection.
Some people use the first person singular rigorously when addressing
only one person, for philosophical or logical reasons. "Quakers" and
some other religious groups are the best known examples of this; the
popular Bible translation originating in the early 17th century and
known as "The Authorised Version" (AV) or "King James Version" (KJV)
also does this, mostly.
So your "know thee whereof thou speakest" is essentially 'correct', the
verb 'to know' being used in the 'vocative' case and 'to speak' being
'nominative'. This is one of the relics of the time when English was
more fully 'inflected'.
an interesting point there about a vestigial vocative. I suppose phrases
like "Hear ye!" are also vocative?
Whiskers
2013-12-23 15:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom P
Post by Whiskers
I know thou, thee, thy, thine, but I'm not sure if thee is correct in
the sentence "Know thee, whereof thou speak'st" with the meaning "Be
sure you know what you are talking about"
[...]
Post by Tom P
Post by Whiskers
So your "know thee whereof thou speakest" is essentially 'correct', the
verb 'to know' being used in the 'vocative' case and 'to speak' being
'nominative'. This is one of the relics of the time when English was
more fully 'inflected'.
an interesting point there about a vestigial vocative. I suppose phrases
like "Hear ye!" are also vocative?
Yes, I think so. "Be of good cheer" and "God rest ye merry, gentlemen"
and "fear not" and perhaps even "jingle bells" - to be seasonal.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
White Spirit
2013-12-30 10:42:45 UTC
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Post by Tom P
an interesting point there about a vestigial vocative.
Not interesting but, in fact, wrong.
Post by Tom P
I suppose phrases
like "Hear ye!" are also vocative?
No. It is the imperative case.
Jack Campin
2013-12-30 22:59:33 UTC
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Post by White Spirit
I suppose phrases like "Hear ye!" are also vocative?
No. It is the imperative case.
What linguistic theory recognizes the existence of such a thing?

(The way I see it, only verb phrases can be imperative and only
noun phrases can have cases).

The second person pronoun in "O come all ye faithful" is a vocative,
and will still be one if rendered as "you".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
White Spirit
2013-12-30 23:22:51 UTC
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Post by Jack Campin
Post by White Spirit
I suppose phrases like "Hear ye!" are also vocative?
No. It is the imperative case.
What linguistic theory recognizes the existence of such a thing?
Yes, I should have said 'the imperative mood'.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/books/pgmc03.html#3_7_1
Post by Jack Campin
The second person pronoun in "O come all ye faithful" is a vocative,
and will still be one if rendered as "you".
It is nominative. The vocative case does not exist in English and is
not attested in any stage of the language. It is senseless to apply the
standards of Latin grammar to the English language because certain
features of Latin simply do not exist in English.
Jack Campin
2013-12-31 16:15:10 UTC
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Post by White Spirit
Post by Jack Campin
The second person pronoun in "O come all ye faithful" is a vocative,
and will still be one if rendered as "you".
It is nominative. The vocative case does not exist in English and is
not attested in any stage of the language. It is senseless to apply
the standards of Latin grammar to the English language because certain
features of Latin simply do not exist in English.
I was thinking of parallels with Arabic and Maori rather than Latin.
Both have vocative particles rather than vocative inflections. You
can always work out when that case is being used.

English sometimes marks the vocative by distinctive stress:

1. What do you think, John?
2. What does John think?

"John" is more weakly stressed in the first (usually spoken at lower
pitch).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
White Spirit
2013-12-31 16:22:30 UTC
Permalink
It might seem that way if you interpret English as you would other
languages that have the vocative case.
Post by Jack Campin
1. What do you think, John?
Subjective/nominative.
Post by Jack Campin
2. What does John think?
Objective/accusative.
Post by Jack Campin
"John" is more weakly stressed in the first (usually spoken at lower
pitch).
Stress and pitch do not denote case in English.
White Spirit
2013-12-30 10:41:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whiskers
The first person singular is rarely used in modern English; so rarely
that when it is, the verb often takes an archaic "...[e]st" suffix
in the 'vocative' or 'interrogative' cases.
Neither of those cases is attested in any stage of the English language.
Xakero
2013-12-24 17:22:16 UTC
Permalink
Thank you all.
Bill McCray
2014-01-08 13:34:40 UTC
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Post by Xakero
Thank you all.
Shouldn't that be "Thank ye all"?

Bill in Kentucky

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