Discussion:
Nevertheless
(too old to reply)
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-14 08:45:44 UTC
Permalink
Hello, all.

All my life I wondered about the morphology of
`nevertheless' and how it is related to its meaning: why
`never', and what does `the' refer to, for it looks like a
part of a double comparison, &c. Now I understand, for on
this morning's commute I encoutered the following passage in
a book I am reading:

Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves
not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is never the less
for the disappointment.

The usage above is literal and in complete accordance with
the morphology: the author's survival does not abate the
assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as adverb) is
essentially the same, if a bit less explicit in structure.
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LionelEdwards
2024-08-14 11:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Hello, all.
All my life I wondered about the morphology of
`nevertheless' and how it is related to its meaning: why
`never', and what does `the' refer to, for it looks like a
part of a double comparison, &c. Now I understand, for on
this morning's commute I encoutered the following passage in
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves
not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is never the less
for the disappointment.
That doesn't make sense, although you can see what the
writer was trying to say:

"...despite the disappointment he feels just as guilty."
Post by Anton Shepelev
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance with
the morphology: the author's survival does not abate the
assassin's guilt.
Yes, much better.
Post by Anton Shepelev
The modern usage (as adverb) is
essentially the same, if a bit less explicit in structure.
J. J. Lodder
2024-08-14 13:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Hello, all.
All my life I wondered about the morphology of
`nevertheless' and how it is related to its meaning: why
`never', and what does `the' refer to, for it looks like a
part of a double comparison, &c. Now I understand, for on
this morning's commute I encoutered the following passage in
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves
not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is never the less
for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance with
the morphology: the author's survival does not abate the
assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as adverb) is
essentially the same, if a bit less explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate error)
The correct text is:
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves not strong
enough to kill me, his guilt is nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
From
Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger and Clemency, by Lucius
Annaeus Seneca, Translated by Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669)
(Project Gutenberg Etext)

Jan
jerryfriedman
2024-08-14 14:34:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Hello, all.
All my life I wondered about the morphology of
`nevertheless' and how it is related to its meaning: why
`never', and what does `the' refer to, for it looks like a
part of a double comparison, &c. Now I understand, for on
this morning's commute I encoutered the following passage in
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves
not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is never the less
for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance with
the morphology: the author's survival does not abate the
assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as adverb) is
essentially the same, if a bit less explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate error)
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves not strong
enough to kill me, his guilt is nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
From
Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger and Clemency, by Lucius
Annaeus Seneca, Translated by Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669)
(Project Gutenberg Etext)
When was that printed? This version from 1679 has "never the
Less", which makes sense, as Anton says.

https://books.google.com/books?id=865kAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA201

(I don't see any earlier editions at GB.)

--
Jerry Friedman
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-14 16:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it
proves not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is
never the less for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance
with the morphology: the author's survival does not
abate the assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as
adverb) is essentially the same, if a bit less
explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it
proves not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is
nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
From Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger
and Clemency, by Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Translated by
Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669) (Project Gutenberg Etext)
When was that printed? This version from 1679 has "never
the Less", which makes sense, as Anton says.
I am rather amused, because I /was/ quoting from the Project
Gutenberg edition, and deliberately (and tacitly) split
`nevertheless' into three words to emphasize my point! I do
not agree with J.J. that splitting a compound word into its
parts can make so large a difference. A donut is a dough
nut is a dough nut.
--
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Snidely
2024-08-15 07:19:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it
proves not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is
never the less for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance
with the morphology: the author's survival does not
abate the assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as
adverb) is essentially the same, if a bit less
explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it
proves not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is
nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
From Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger
and Clemency, by Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Translated by
Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669) (Project Gutenberg Etext)
When was that printed? This version from 1679 has "never
the Less", which makes sense, as Anton says.
I am rather amused, because I /was/ quoting from the Project
Gutenberg edition, and deliberately (and tacitly) split
`nevertheless' into three words to emphasize my point! I do
not agree with J.J. that splitting a compound word into its
parts can make so large a difference. A donut is a dough
nut is a dough nut.
Um, take it from me, it makes a difference in many cases. Consider the
classic example of "black bird" and "blackbird".

/dps
--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean
Peter Moylan
2024-08-15 07:59:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it
proves not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is
never the less for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance
with the morphology: the author's survival does not
abate the assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as
adverb) is essentially the same, if a bit less
explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it
proves not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is
nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
From Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger
and Clemency, by Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Translated by
Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669) (Project Gutenberg Etext)
When was that printed? This version from 1679 has "never
the Less", which makes sense, as Anton says.
I am rather amused, because I /was/ quoting from the Project
Gutenberg edition, and deliberately (and tacitly) split
`nevertheless' into three words to emphasize my point! I do
not agree with J.J. that splitting a compound word into its
parts can make so large a difference. A donut is a dough
nut is a dough nut.
Um, take it from me, it makes a difference in many cases. Consider the
classic example of "black bird" and "blackbird".
And, as the Seneca example illustrates, modern "nevertheless" does not
have precisely the same meaning as its ancestor "never the less".
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
J. J. Lodder
2024-08-15 14:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Peter Moylan <***@pmoylan.org> wrote:
[sorry about the jumping, missing articles on server]
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Snidely
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it
proves not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is
never the less for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance
with the morphology: the author's survival does not
abate the assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as
adverb) is essentially the same, if a bit less
explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it
proves not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is
nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
From Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger
and Clemency, by Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Translated by
Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669) (Project Gutenberg Etext)
When was that printed? This version from 1679 has "never
the Less", which makes sense, as Anton says.
I am rather amused, because I /was/ quoting from the Project
Gutenberg edition, and deliberately (and tacitly) split
`nevertheless' into three words to emphasize my point! I do
not agree with J.J. that splitting a compound word into its
parts can make so large a difference. A donut is a dough
nut is a dough nut.
Making tacit changes in quoted text is a crime.
(as is not giving your source)

It merits transportation for life,
(and then to be fined forty pound)

Jan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Snidely
Um, take it from me, it makes a difference in many cases. Consider the
classic example of "black bird" and "blackbird".
And, as the Seneca example illustrates, modern "nevertheless" does not
have precisely the same meaning as its ancestor "never the less".
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-15 15:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
And, as the Seneca example illustrates, modern
"nevertheless" does not have precisely the same meaning as
its ancestor "never the less".
Yes, but in my opinion the difference is merely syntatical:
the modern compound word being an adverb, it cannot take a
complement, which is implied.
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LionelEdwards
2024-08-15 16:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Snidely
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it
proves not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is
never the less for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance
with the morphology: the author's survival does not
abate the assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as
adverb) is essentially the same, if a bit less
explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it
proves not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is
nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
From Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger
and Clemency, by Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Translated by
Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669) (Project Gutenberg Etext)
When was that printed? This version from 1679 has "never
the Less", which makes sense, as Anton says.
I am rather amused, because I /was/ quoting from the Project
Gutenberg edition, and deliberately (and tacitly) split
`nevertheless' into three words to emphasize my point! I do
not agree with J.J. that splitting a compound word into its
parts can make so large a difference. A donut is a dough
nut is a dough nut.
Um, take it from me, it makes a difference in many cases. Consider the
classic example of "black bird" and "blackbird".
And, as the Seneca example illustrates, modern "nevertheless" does not
have precisely the same meaning as its ancestor "never the less".
To quoth Edgar Allen Poe's Raven: never more? Possibly the same?
A little bit less? The whole poem is out of copyright so here it is:

The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore—
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
“’Tis some visitor,” I muttered, “tapping at my chamber door—
Only this and nothing more.”

Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December;
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Eagerly I wished the morrow;—vainly I had sought to borrow
From my books surcease of sorrow—sorrow for the lost Lenore—
For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore—
Nameless here for evermore.

And the silken, sad, uncertain rustling of each purple curtain
Thrilled me—filled me with fantastic terrors never felt before;
So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating
“’Tis some visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door—
Some late visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door;—
This it is and nothing more.”

Presently my soul grew stronger; hesitating then no longer,
“Sir,” said I, “or Madam, truly your forgiveness I implore;
But the fact is I was napping, and so gently you came rapping,
And so faintly you came tapping, tapping at my chamber door,
That I scarce was sure I heard you”—here I opened wide the door;—
Darkness there and nothing more.

Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering,
fearing,
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before;
But the silence was unbroken, and the stillness gave no token,
And the only word there spoken was the whispered word, “Lenore?”
This I whispered, and an echo murmured back the word, “Lenore!”—
Merely this and nothing more.

Back into the chamber turning, all my soul within me burning,
Soon again I heard a tapping somewhat louder than before.
“Surely,” said I, “surely that is something at my window lattice;
Let me see, then, what thereat is, and this mystery explore—
Let my heart be still a moment and this mystery explore;—
’Tis the wind and nothing more!”

Open here I flung the shutter, when, with many a flirt and flutter,
In there stepped a stately Raven of the saintly days of yore;
Not the least obeisance made he; not a minute stopped or stayed he;
But, with mien of lord or lady, perched above my chamber door—
Perched upon a bust of Pallas just above my chamber door—
Perched, and sat, and nothing more.

Then this ebony bird beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
By the grave and stern decorum of the countenance it wore,
“Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou,” I said, “art sure no
craven,
Ghastly grim and ancient Raven wandering from the Nightly shore—
Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night’s Plutonian shore!”
Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

Much I marvelled this ungainly fowl to hear discourse so plainly,
Though its answer little meaning—little relevancy bore;
For we cannot help agreeing that no living human being
Ever yet was blessed with seeing bird above his chamber door—
Bird or beast upon the sculptured bust above his chamber door,
With such name as “Nevermore.”

But the Raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only
That one word, as if his soul in that one word he did outpour.
Nothing farther then he uttered—not a feather then he fluttered—
Till I scarcely more than muttered “Other friends have flown before—
On the morrow he will leave me, as my Hopes have flown before.”
Then the bird said “Nevermore.”

Startled at the stillness broken by reply so aptly spoken,
“Doubtless,” said I, “what it utters is its only stock and store
Caught from some unhappy master whom unmerciful Disaster
Followed fast and followed faster till his songs one burden bore—
Till the dirges of his Hope that melancholy burden bore
Of ‘Never—nevermore’.”

But the Raven still beguiling all my fancy into smiling,
Straight I wheeled a cushioned seat in front of bird, and bust and door;
Then, upon the velvet sinking, I betook myself to linking
Fancy unto fancy, thinking what this ominous bird of yore—
What this grim, ungainly, ghastly, gaunt, and ominous bird of yore
Meant in croaking “Nevermore.”

This I sat engaged in guessing, but no syllable expressing
To the fowl whose fiery eyes now burned into my bosom’s core;
This and more I sat divining, with my head at ease reclining
On the cushion’s velvet lining that the lamp-light gloated o’er,
But whose velvet-violet lining with the lamp-light gloating o’er,
She shall press, ah, nevermore!

Then, methought, the air grew denser, perfumed from an unseen censer
Swung by Seraphim whose foot-falls tinkled on the tufted floor.
“Wretch,” I cried, “thy God hath lent thee—by these angels he hath
sent thee
Respite—respite and nepenthe from thy memories of Lenore;
Quaff, oh quaff this kind nepenthe and forget this lost Lenore!”
Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

“Prophet!” said I, “thing of evil!—prophet still, if bird or devil!—
Whether Tempter sent, or whether tempest tossed thee here ashore,
Desolate yet all undaunted, on this desert land enchanted—
On this home by Horror haunted—tell me truly, I implore—
Is there—is there balm in Gilead?—tell me—tell me, I implore!”
Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

“Prophet!” said I, “thing of evil!—prophet still, if bird or devil!
By that Heaven that bends above us—by that God we both adore—
Tell this soul with sorrow laden if, within the distant Aidenn,
It shall clasp a sainted maiden whom the angels name Lenore—
Clasp a rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Lenore.”
Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

“Be that word our sign of parting, bird or fiend!” I shrieked,
upstarting—
“Get thee back into the tempest and the Night’s Plutonian shore!
Leave no black plume as a token of that lie thy soul hath spoken!
Leave my loneliness unbroken!—quit the bust above my door!
Take thy beak from out my heart, and take thy form from off my door!”
Quoth the Raven “Nevermore.”

And the Raven, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door;
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon’s that is dreaming,
And the lamp-light o’er him streaming throws his shadow on the
floor;
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
Shall be lifted—nevermore!
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-15 15:42:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Anton Shepelev
I am rather amused, because I /was/ quoting from the
Project Gutenberg edition, and deliberately (and
tacitly) split `nevertheless' into three words to
emphasize my point! I do not agree with J.J. that
splitting a compound word into its parts can make so
large a difference. A donut is a doughnut is a dough
nut.
Um, take it from me, it makes a difference in many cases.
Consider the classic example of "black bird" and
"blackbird".
There of course /is/ a difference, but hardly ever so great
as to make the two variants opposite. The blackbird is a
black bird, after all.
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Sam Plusnet
2024-08-15 18:44:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by Snidely
Post by Anton Shepelev
I am rather amused, because I /was/ quoting from the
Project Gutenberg edition, and deliberately (and
tacitly) split `nevertheless' into three words to
emphasize my point! I do not agree with J.J. that
splitting a compound word into its parts can make so
large a difference. A donut is a doughnut is a dough
nut.
Um, take it from me, it makes a difference in many cases.
Consider the classic example of "black bird" and
"blackbird".
There of course /is/ a difference, but hardly ever so great
as to make the two variants opposite. The blackbird is a
black bird, after all.
And all those black birds which are not blackbirds?

You now seem to be suggesting that, unless the meaning has been
completely inverted, that isn't a 'large difference'.
--
Sam Plusnet
occam
2024-08-16 11:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
I do
not agree with J.J. that splitting a compound word into its
parts can make so large a difference. A donut is a dough
nut is a dough nut.
How ever did you come to that conclusion? (However, your liking for
doughnuts is noted.)
Peter Moylan
2024-08-16 11:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
I do not agree with J.J. that splitting a compound word into its
parts can make so large a difference. A donut is a dough nut is a
dough nut.
How ever did you come to that conclusion? (However, your liking for
doughnuts is noted.)
Most of the doughnuts sold in this country are torus shaped. It's a long
time since I last saw a dough nut, although i know they were nut shaped
back in the long ago.

(A dough nut is roughly spherical.)
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
LionelEdwards
2024-08-14 14:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Hello, all.
All my life I wondered about the morphology of
`nevertheless' and how it is related to its meaning: why
`never', and what does `the' refer to, for it looks like a
part of a double comparison, &c. Now I understand, for on
this morning's commute I encoutered the following passage in
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves
not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is never the less
for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance with
the morphology: the author's survival does not abate the
assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as adverb) is
essentially the same, if a bit less explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate error)
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves not strong
enough to kill me, his guilt is nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
That makes even less sense than the misprint, and means (if it means
anything) its opposite. I wonder what Sir Roger thought Seneca was
trying to say? Fowler defines nevertheless thusly:

nevertheless, nonetheless. These are
mere stylistic variants as adverbs meaning
'in spite of that, notwithstanding,
all the same'. The COD and New SOED
favour the form nonetheless (one word),
rather than none the less, for the second.

<https://alexandriaesl.pbworks.com/f/The+New+Fowler%27s+Modern+English+Usage.pdf>
Post by J. J. Lodder
From
Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger and Clemency, by Lucius
Annaeus Seneca, Translated by Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669)
(Project Gutenberg Etext)
Jan
J. J. Lodder
2024-08-14 19:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by LionelEdwards
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Hello, all.
All my life I wondered about the morphology of
`nevertheless' and how it is related to its meaning: why
`never', and what does `the' refer to, for it looks like a
part of a double comparison, &c. Now I understand, for on
this morning's commute I encoutered the following passage in
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves
not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is never the less
for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance with
the morphology: the author's survival does not abate the
assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as adverb) is
essentially the same, if a bit less explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate error)
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves not strong
enough to kill me, his guilt is nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
That makes even less sense than the misprint, and means (if it means
anything) its opposite. I wonder what Sir Roger thought Seneca was
nevertheless, nonetheless. These are
mere stylistic variants as adverbs meaning
'in spite of that, notwithstanding,
all the same'. The COD and New SOED
favour the form nonetheless (one word),
rather than none the less, for the second.
<https://alexandriaesl.pbworks.com/f/The+New+Fowler%27s+Modern+English+Usage.p
df>

Would it surprise very much you to learn that Sir Roger L'Estrange
was not aware of your 'modern usage'?
I'll stick to my Gutenberg rendition,
unless someone finds a printed edition that says otherwise,

Jan
Post by LionelEdwards
Post by J. J. Lodder
From
Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger and Clemency, by Lucius
Annaeus Seneca, Translated by Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669)
(Project Gutenberg Etext)
Jan
Peter Moylan
2024-08-15 00:15:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Hello, all.
All my life I wondered about the morphology of
`nevertheless' and how it is related to its meaning: why
`never', and what does `the' refer to, for it looks like a
part of a double comparison, &c. Now I understand, for on
this morning's commute I encoutered the following passage in
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves
not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is never the less
for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance with
the morphology: the author's survival does not abate the
assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as adverb) is
essentially the same, if a bit less explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate error)
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves not strong
enough to kill me, his guilt is nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
From
Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger and Clemency, by Lucius
Annaeus Seneca, Translated by Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669)
(Project Gutenberg Etext)
Then Project Gutenberg has made a mistake. The version with "never the
less" makes sense. The sentence you quote makes no sense at all.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
J. J. Lodder
2024-08-16 09:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Hello, all.
All my life I wondered about the morphology of
`nevertheless' and how it is related to its meaning: why
`never', and what does `the' refer to, for it looks like a
part of a double comparison, &c. Now I understand, for on
this morning's commute I encoutered the following passage in
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves
not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is never the less
for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance with
the morphology: the author's survival does not abate the
assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as adverb) is
essentially the same, if a bit less explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate error)
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves not strong
enough to kill me, his guilt is nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
From
Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger and Clemency, by Lucius
Annaeus Seneca, Translated by Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669)
(Project Gutenberg Etext)
Then Project Gutenberg has made a mistake. The version with "never the
less" makes sense. The sentence you quote makes no sense at all.
I'm afraid that it is too late to inform Sir Roger about your views.
Does anyone here have access to a good library to verify
what he actually wrote?

Jan
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-16 20:29:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Then Project Gutenberg has made a mistake. The version
with "never the less" makes sense. The sentence you
quote makes no sense at all.
I'm afraid that it is too late to inform Sir Roger about
your views. Does anyone here have access to a good
library to verify what he actually wrote?
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a complement,
but I fear you are never the wiser for Peter's remark.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments
lar3ryca
2024-08-18 04:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Then Project Gutenberg has made a mistake. The version
with "never the less" makes sense. The sentence you
quote makes no sense at all.
I'm afraid that it is too late to inform Sir Roger about
your views. Does anyone here have access to a good
library to verify what he actually wrote?
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a complement,
but I fear you are never the wiser for Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
--
I didn't know why they were telling me about all those birds sitting on
the wire, but then I understood.
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-22 09:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.

Similarly, I had read some fifty or so pages of /Worm
Ouroboros/ before I realised that "or ever" means "before",
e.g.:

1. We can surprise Witchland in his strong place of Carce,
sack it, and give him to the crows to peck at, or ever he
is well awake to the swiftness of our answer.

2. he thought he knew that the King must have been sore
bested in this bout, seeing that he must do this beastly
deed or ever he might overcome the might of his
adversary.

The narrow meaning of "or ever" seems to be preventative,
i.e. denoting a cause that prevents an effect. Whereas,
however, the one must needs occur prior to the other, the
meaning was extended to simple chronological precedence,
e.g.:

1. Suffer us then to sail to-night, and do thou on some
pretext delay them here for three days only, that we may
get us home or ever they leave the Foliot Isles.

2. For many years, Lord, or ever I came to Carce, I fared up
and down the world, and I am acquainted with objects of
terror as a child with his toys.
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Anton Shepelev
2024-08-22 10:42:50 UTC
Permalink
Although `never' may sound strange to an a reader of
limited scope, I find it often used in a sense not
literaly temporal.
But of course, for never is merely the negation of `ever',
not ever.
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jerryfriedman
2024-08-22 17:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common. Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Post by Anton Shepelev
Similarly, I had read some fifty or so pages of /Worm
Ouroboros/ before I realised that "or ever" means "before",
1. We can surprise Witchland in his strong place of Carce,
sack it, and give him to the crows to peck at, or ever he
is well awake to the swiftness of our answer.
..

I'm sure it took me quite a few pages too. That "or" is a
variant of "ere", as you may know.

--
Jerry Friedman
lar3ryca
2024-08-22 21:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
Post by Anton Shepelev
Similarly, I had read some fifty or so pages of /Worm
Ouroboros/ before I realised that "or ever" means "before",
1. We can surprise Witchland in his strong place of Carce,
   sack it, and give him to the crows to peck at, or ever he
   is well awake to the swiftness of our answer.
..
I'm sure it took me quite a few pages too.  That "or" is a
variant of "ere", as you may know.
--
Jerry Friedman
--
Been there. Done that. This IS the T-shirt
jerryfriedman
2024-08-23 14:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..

What's an example?

I can think of Monty Python, "That was never five minutes!"
So maybe "archaic" is too strong, but certainly old-fashioned.

--
Jerry Friedman
Janet
2024-08-23 15:19:00 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
So do I.
What's an example?
I've missed the last train!
"Never mind, I'll drive you home."

Do you ever wish you were 21 again?
"Never."
I can think of Monty Python, "That was never five
minutes!"


So, wee Jimmy, you were alone in the room with my new
bar of chocolate and now all that's left is a crumpled
wrapper. What happened?"

Jimmy fae Glasgow ; "I never".

Janet.
So maybe "archaic" is too strong, but certainly old-fashioned.
Snidely
2024-08-23 18:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
In article
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
So do I.
What's an example?
I've missed the last train!
"Never mind, I'll drive you home."
Do you ever wish you were 21 again?
"Never."
These aren't the usages Jerry was discussing, except that he mentioned
"Never mind" as being the most common non-temporal usage of never.
Post by Janet
I can think of Monty Python, "That was never five
minutes!"
So, wee Jimmy, you were alone in the room with my new
bar of chocolate and now all that's left is a crumpled
wrapper. What happened?"
Jimmy fae Glasgow ; "I never".
Janet.
This is a relevant usage, but Jerry's not fae Glasgow, and I suspect
he'd expect the answer to be "I dunno", as I would. And I'd mark this
as "dialect".
Post by Janet
So maybe "archaic" is too strong, but certainly old-fashioned.
/dps
--
Let's celebrate Macaronesia
jerryfriedman
2024-08-24 03:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Janet
In article
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
So do I.
What's an example?
I've missed the last train!
"Never mind, I'll drive you home."
Do you ever wish you were 21 again?
"Never."
These aren't the usages Jerry was discussing, except that he mentioned
"Never mind" as being the most common non-temporal usage of never.
Post by Janet
I can think of Monty Python, "That was never five
minutes!"
So, wee Jimmy, you were alone in the room with my new
bar of chocolate and now all that's left is a crumpled
wrapper. What happened?"
Jimmy fae Glasgow ; "I never".
Janet.
This is a relevant usage, but Jerry's not fae Glasgow, and I suspect
he'd expect the answer to be "I dunno", as I would. And I'd mark this
as "dialect".
I agree with all that, except that despite a complete lack of
familiarity with the speech of wee Weegies, I wonder whether
that is a temporal "never". "I never touched it!"

Another American option is "I didn't do it!"
Post by Snidely
Post by Janet
So maybe "archaic" is too strong, but certainly old-fashioned.
/dps
jerryfriedman
2024-08-24 03:46:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
In article
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
So do I.
What's an example?
I've missed the last train!
"Never mind, I'll drive you home."
..

Mostly British, or at least not American? I hear and use "Never
mind" the way Larry did, to mean "Ignore what I just said." In
the situation you're talking about, I'd say "I'll drive you", or if
the person's really upset, "It's OK, I'll drive you." (Or "take"
instead of "drive".)

--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2024-08-24 05:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Janet
In article
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
So do I.
What's an example?
I've missed the last train!
"Never mind, I'll drive you home."
..
Mostly British, or at least not American? I hear and use "Never
mind" the way Larry did, to mean "Ignore what I just said." In
the situation you're talking about, I'd say "I'll drive you", or if
the person's really upset, "It's OK, I'll drive you." (Or "take"
instead of "drive".)
The "Never mind", in the above context, is just another way of saying
"It's OK"...don't let this bother you." It's a soothing suggestion.

I don't see it as either American or British. It may not be Friedman
American English, but it could be Other American English.

There's another instance of "Never mind" being used that is frequent.
Frequent in my case, because of my hearing disability. My wife will
make some casual comment that I didn't catch and I'll say "What?".

Her "never mind" is not so much "Ignore what I just said" as it is "It
wasn't important enough to bother to repeat it".

There's a big difference between "Ignore what I just said" and "It
wasn't important enough to bother to repeat it". The former implies
she wishes she hadn't said it. The latter implies no regret.
Impatience, maybe.
jerryfriedman
2024-08-24 21:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Janet
In article
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
So do I.
What's an example?
I've missed the last train!
"Never mind, I'll drive you home."
..
Mostly British, or at least not American? I hear and use "Never
mind" the way Larry did, to mean "Ignore what I just said." In
the situation you're talking about, I'd say "I'll drive you", or if
the person's really upset, "It's OK, I'll drive you." (Or "take"
instead of "drive".)
The "Never mind", in the above context, is just another way of saying
"It's OK"...don't let this bother you." It's a soothing suggestion.
Yes, I spotted that.
Post by Tony Cooper
I don't see it as either American or British. It may not be Friedman
American English, but it could be Other American English.
So you hear Americans say it? Maybe say it yourself?
Post by Tony Cooper
There's another instance of "Never mind" being used that is frequent.
Frequent in my case, because of my hearing disability. My wife will
make some casual comment that I didn't catch and I'll say "What?".
Her "never mind" is not so much "Ignore what I just said" as it is "It
wasn't important enough to bother to repeat it".
There's a big difference between "Ignore what I just said" and "It
wasn't important enough to bother to repeat it". The former implies
she wishes she hadn't said it. The latter implies no regret.
Impatience, maybe.
OK, but both mean "What I just said isn't important" in some way,
quite different from the soothing meaning in Janet's example.

--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2024-08-25 00:08:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Janet
In article
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
So do I.
What's an example?
I've missed the last train!
"Never mind, I'll drive you home."
..
Mostly British, or at least not American? I hear and use "Never
mind" the way Larry did, to mean "Ignore what I just said." In
the situation you're talking about, I'd say "I'll drive you", or if
the person's really upset, "It's OK, I'll drive you." (Or "take"
instead of "drive".)
The "Never mind", in the above context, is just another way of saying
"It's OK"...don't let this bother you." It's a soothing suggestion.
Yes, I spotted that.
Post by Tony Cooper
I don't see it as either American or British. It may not be Friedman
American English, but it could be Other American English.
So you hear Americans say it? Maybe say it yourself?
I can't really say. It's such an ordinary way to express the thought
that I wouldn't notice that I'd said it or heard it. What I do know
is that I wouldn't be hesitant to text "Never mind. I'll do it" in a
text conversation.

I mention text because in texting one usually chooses the wording more
carefully that one might in ordinary conversation. That doesn't mean
I'd choose that wording over "It's OK, I'lll do it", it just means
that I'd find either normal and acceptable.
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Tony Cooper
There's another instance of "Never mind" being used that is frequent.
Frequent in my case, because of my hearing disability. My wife will
make some casual comment that I didn't catch and I'll say "What?".
Her "never mind" is not so much "Ignore what I just said" as it is "It
wasn't important enough to bother to repeat it".
There's a big difference between "Ignore what I just said" and "It
wasn't important enough to bother to repeat it". The former implies
she wishes she hadn't said it. The latter implies no regret.
Impatience, maybe.
OK, but both mean "What I just said isn't important" in some way,
quite different from the soothing meaning in Janet's example.
My wife often tries to sooth me when I get agitated because I can't
hear something she says and have to ask her to repeat it.

A hearing deficiency can be frustrating to both parties. She gets
tired of repeating herself, and I get agitated because I sense that
it's annoying her when I don't intend to.
Jerry Friedman
2024-08-25 13:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Janet
In article
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
So do I.
What's an example?
I've missed the last train!
"Never mind, I'll drive you home."
..
Mostly British, or at least not American? I hear and use "Never
mind" the way Larry did, to mean "Ignore what I just said." In
the situation you're talking about, I'd say "I'll drive you", or if
the person's really upset, "It's OK, I'll drive you." (Or "take"
instead of "drive".)
The "Never mind", in the above context, is just another way of saying
"It's OK"...don't let this bother you." It's a soothing suggestion.
Yes, I spotted that.
Post by Tony Cooper
I don't see it as either American or British. It may not be Friedman
American English, but it could be Other American English.
So you hear Americans say it? Maybe say it yourself?
I can't really say. It's such an ordinary way to express the thought
that I wouldn't notice that I'd said it or heard it. What I do know
is that I wouldn't be hesitant to text "Never mind. I'll do it" in a
text conversation.
I mention text because in texting one usually chooses the wording more
carefully that one might in ordinary conversation.
I'll believe you do, but I don't think it's that usual.
Post by Tony Cooper
That doesn't mean
I'd choose that wording over "It's OK, I'lll do it", it just means
that I'd find either normal and acceptable.
Well, it doesn't sound normal to me (for Americans), but maybe
I just haven't noticed.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Tony Cooper
There's another instance of "Never mind" being used that is frequent.
Frequent in my case, because of my hearing disability. My wife will
make some casual comment that I didn't catch and I'll say "What?".
Her "never mind" is not so much "Ignore what I just said" as it is "It
wasn't important enough to bother to repeat it".
There's a big difference between "Ignore what I just said" and "It
wasn't important enough to bother to repeat it". The former implies
she wishes she hadn't said it. The latter implies no regret.
Impatience, maybe.
OK, but both mean "What I just said isn't important" in some way,
quite different from the soothing meaning in Janet's example.
My wife often tries to sooth me when I get agitated because I can't
hear something she says and have to ask her to repeat it.
A hearing deficiency can be frustrating to both parties. She gets
tired of repeating herself, and I get agitated because I sense that
it's annoying her when I don't intend to.
Certainly.
--
Jerry Friedman
Sam Plusnet
2024-08-25 17:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
My wife often tries to sooth me when I get agitated because I can't
hear something she says and have to ask her to repeat it.
A hearing deficiency can be frustrating to both parties. She gets
tired of repeating herself, and I get agitated because I sense that
it's annoying her when I don't intend to.
After 50 years of marriage, I can now honestly say:
"My wife doesn't understand me."
--
Sam Plusnet
Steve Hayes
2024-08-25 02:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Tony Cooper
There's a big difference between "Ignore what I just said" and "It
wasn't important enough to bother to repeat it". The former implies
she wishes she hadn't said it. The latter implies no regret.
Impatience, maybe.
OK, but both mean "What I just said isn't important" in some way,
quite different from the soothing meaning in Janet's example.
The context in which I most often hear the expression "Never mind" is
a UK TV quiz show called "Tipping Point", in which, if contestants
answer a question correctly they get a chance to release a plastic
disc ("counter") on to a moving shelf, which they then hope will push
discs from that shelf onto a stationary one below, and they get £50
for every counter pushed off the lower shelf. If the counters fail to
drop from the lower shelf, about 50% of the contestants say "Never
mind."

If you try to do something and fail, you say "Never mind".

That usage strikes me as rather odd, but it's obviously common in the
UK.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Janet
2024-08-25 10:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Tony Cooper
There's a big difference between "Ignore what I just said" and "It
wasn't important enough to bother to repeat it". The former implies
she wishes she hadn't said it. The latter implies no regret.
Impatience, maybe.
OK, but both mean "What I just said isn't important" in some way,
quite different from the soothing meaning in Janet's example.
The context in which I most often hear the expression "Never mind" is
a UK TV quiz show called "Tipping Point", in which, if contestants
answer a question correctly they get a chance to release a plastic
disc ("counter") on to a moving shelf, which they then hope will push
discs from that shelf onto a stationary one below, and they get £50
for every counter pushed off the lower shelf. If the counters fail to
drop from the lower shelf, about 50% of the contestants say "Never
mind."
If you try to do something and fail, you say "Never mind".
That usage strikes me as rather odd, but it's obviously common in the
UK.
"Mind the gap" ( audible warning to rail passengers)


like another glass of wine?

"Don't mind if I do".

would you prefer red or white?

"I don't mind."



Janet
Steve Hayes
2024-08-26 05:07:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
"Mind the gap" ( audible warning to rail passengers)
like another glass of wine?
"Don't mind if I do".
would you prefer red or white?
"I don't mind."
That's my usage too.

But where I would have said "I don't mind" in those situations, an
American visitor once said "I don't care," which shocked me, and
struck me as incredibly rude, and I had to force myself to think that
he probably didn't mean it like that.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
lar3ryca
2024-08-26 19:18:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Janet
"Mind the gap" ( audible warning to rail passengers)
like another glass of wine?
"Don't mind if I do".
would you prefer red or white?
"I don't mind."
That's my usage too.
But where I would have said "I don't mind" in those situations, an
American visitor once said "I don't care," which shocked me, and
struck me as incredibly rude, and I had to force myself to think that
he probably didn't mean it like that.
I the case of 'red or white?', I have been known to say:

Doesn't matter; whatever's open.

I'm colour blind.

I'll try whatever you're having.
--
What do you call a fish without an eye?
Fsh.
Hibou
2024-08-26 07:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Steve Hayes
The context in which I most often hear the expression "Never mind" is
a UK TV quiz show called "Tipping Point", in which, if contestants
answer a question correctly they get a chance to release a plastic
disc ("counter") on to a moving shelf, which they then hope will push
discs from that shelf onto a stationary one below, and they get £50
for every counter pushed off the lower shelf. If the counters fail to
drop from the lower shelf, about 50% of the contestants say "Never
mind."
If you try to do something and fail, you say "Never mind".
That usage strikes me as rather odd, but it's obviously common in the
UK.
"Mind the gap" ( audible warning to rail passengers)
Especially on HS2 (which has long smelt like H2S)...

'HS2 trains too high for station platforms – leaving taxpayers with
£200m bill' -
<https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/hs2-trains-too-high-station-platforms-taxpayers-bill-3240475>
(2024-08-23)
Post by Janet
like another glass of wine?
"Don't mind if I do".
would you prefer red or white?
"I don't mind."
All good.

Mind how you go!
Jerry Friedman
2024-08-25 13:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Tony Cooper
There's a big difference between "Ignore what I just said" and "It
wasn't important enough to bother to repeat it". The former implies
she wishes she hadn't said it. The latter implies no regret.
Impatience, maybe.
OK, but both mean "What I just said isn't important" in some way,
quite different from the soothing meaning in Janet's example.
The context in which I most often hear the expression "Never mind" is
a UK TV quiz show called "Tipping Point", in which, if contestants
answer a question correctly they get a chance to release a plastic
disc ("counter") on to a moving shelf, which they then hope will push
discs from that shelf onto a stationary one below, and they get £50
for every counter pushed off the lower shelf. If the counters fail to
drop from the lower shelf, about 50% of the contestants say "Never
mind."
If you try to do something and fail, you say "Never mind".
That usage strikes me as rather odd, but it's obviously common in the
UK.
I'd say it's "Ignore that I said I was making the attempt. It's
over," maybe combined with "Please forget about my
failure."
--
Jerry Friedman
Sam Plusnet
2024-08-24 19:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
In article
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
  So do I.
What's an example?
  I've missed the last train!
   "Never mind, I'll  drive you home."
..
Mostly British, or at least not American?  I hear and use "Never
mind" the way Larry did, to mean "Ignore what I just said."  In
the situation you're talking about, I'd say "I'll drive you", or if
the person's really upset, "It's OK, I'll drive you."  (Or "take"
instead of "drive".)
There's a song from the First World War which has the chorus:

"Though your heart may ache awhile, never mind
Though your face may lose it's smile, never mind
For there's sunshine after rain, and then gladness follows pain
You'll be happy once again, never mind."

Much parodied by troops in the trenches.

"If the Sergeant steals your rum; never mind!
And your face may lose it smile, never mind!
He's entitled to a tot but not the bleeding lot,
If the Sergeant steals your rum, never mind!

When old Jerry shells the trench; never mind!
And your face may lose it smile, never mind!
Though the sandbags bust and fly, you have only once to die
If old Jerry shells the trench, never mind!

If you get stuck on the wire, never mind!
And your face may lose it smile, never mind!
Though the light's as broad as day, when you die they stop your pay
So if you get stuck on the wire, never mind!

If your mate just lost his sight, never mind
And he screamed the whole damned night, never mind
‎Though they'll send him home it's tough, he'll be great for blind-man's
bluff
So if your mate just lost his sight, never mind"
--
Sam Plusnet
lar3ryca
2024-08-23 21:53:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Anton Shepelev
It takes but a basic understanding of English to realise
that only as a phrase can "never the less" take a
complement, but I fear you are never the wiser for
Peter's remark.
I Canadian English, that phrase is "none the wiser".
I am sure this not only Canadian English, but perfect
Queen's and King's English proper. Alghouthg `never' may
sound strange to an a reader of limited scope, I find it
often used in a sense not literaly temporal.
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
What's an example?
Someone who lost a lot of weight.
What's a diet?

Sorry.. I just couldn't resists a little Govende.

Example:
"Do you know where my phone is?"
"Never mind. I found it."
Post by jerryfriedman
I can think of Monty Python, "That was never five minutes!"
So maybe "archaic" is too strong, but certainly old-fashioned.
--
Jerry Friedman
--
Yeah, Windows is great... I used it to download Linux.
Peter Moylan
2024-08-23 23:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by lar3ryca
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by lar3ryca
Post by jerryfriedman
I think "never mind" is the most common. Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
What's an example?
Someone who lost a lot of weight.
What's a diet?
Sorry.. I just couldn't resists a little Govende.
"Do you know where my phone is?"
"Never mind. I found it."
That's not an example of "never" that isn't "never mind".
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
lar3ryca
2024-08-26 04:48:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by lar3ryca
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by lar3ryca
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
What's an example?
Someone who lost a lot of weight.
What's a diet?
Sorry.. I just couldn't resists a little Govende.
"Do you know where my phone is?"
"Never mind. I found it."
That's not an example of "never" that isn't "never mind".
Hmm.. I took it as him wanting an example of 'never mind'.
--
EMACS is a pretty good OS, it just lacks a decent text editor.
jerryfriedman
2024-08-26 13:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by lar3ryca
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by lar3ryca
I think "never mind" is the most common.  Otherwise
this use of "never" is archaic in my experience.
Eh? I use it all the time, and hear it often.
..
What's an example?
Someone who lost a lot of weight.
What's a diet?
Sorry.. I just couldn't resists a little Govende.
"Do you know where my phone is?"
"Never mind. I found it."
That's not an example of "never" that isn't "never mind".
Hmm.. I took it as him wanting an example of 'never mind'.
I intended "Otherwise" to mean "Aside from 'never mind'".
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-23 10:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Anton Shepelev
Similarly, I had read some fifty or so pages of /Worm
Ouroboros/ before I realised that "or ever" means
1. We can surprise Witchland in his strong place of
Carce, sack it, and give him to the crows to peck
at, or ever he is well awake to the swiftness of
our answer.
[...]
I'm sure it took me quite a few pages too. That "or" is a
variant of "ere", as you may know.
I thought `ere' was a variant of `ever', not of `or', and
interpreted the `or' as denoting an alternative, that is:

Otherwise [if we do not surprise them at Carce]
he /will/ be well awake to our answer.

If `or' is `ere' as you and dictinaries say, what is the
role of `ever' in `or ever' -- that of emphasis?

Please, amend your name in the From: header from
`jerryfriedman' to `Jerry Friedman'. It only takes a minute
yet saves many readers many an annoyance.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments
Sam Plusnet
2024-08-23 18:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Please, amend your name in the From: header from
`jerryfriedman' to `Jerry Friedman'. It only takes a minute
yet saves many readers many an annoyance.
I must be among the 'few'.

How large was your sample of readers?
--
Sam Plusnet
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-23 22:17:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Anton Shepelev
Please, amend your name in the From: header from
`jerryfriedman' to `Jerry Friedman'. It only takes a
minute yet saves many readers many an annoyance.
I must be among the 'few'.
How large was your sample of readers?
Oh, just a few guys I picked at random: me, my shadow,
myself, and I.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments
Peter Moylan
2024-08-24 00:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Please, amend your name in the From: header from `jerryfriedman' to
`Jerry Friedman'. It only takes a minute yet saves many readers many
an annoyance.
The use of pseudonyms in newsgroups is not unusual. If jerry chooses not
to reveal his real name, that's his privilege.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Snidely
2024-08-24 00:14:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Please, amend your name in the From: header from `jerryfriedman' to
`Jerry Friedman'. It only takes a minute yet saves many readers many
an annoyance.
The use of pseudonyms in newsgroups is not unusual. If jerry chooses not
to reveal his real name, that's his privilege.
My thumb is skyward.

-d
--
"It wasn't just a splash in the pan"
-- lectricbikes.com
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-24 14:25:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Anton Shepelev
Please, amend your name in the From: header from
`jerryfriedman' to `Jerry Friedman'. It only takes a
minute yet saves many readers many an annoyance.
The use of pseudonyms in newsgroups is not unusual. If
jerry chooses not to reveal his real name, that's his
privilege.
`jerryfriedman' is hardly a pseudonym, but rather a
unconventional spelling of a real name. It is not to the
use of pseudonyms that I object to, but to this unjusttified
and unreasonable spelling. IIRC, Jerry himself admitted
that his new display name is not a deliberate (and
delibetated) choice and that he did not felt the amendment
woth the time & effort. I beg pardon if I misremembered.

Some good psedunyms are: Snidely, lar3ryca, Mack A. Damia,
occam, and they belong to great posters, too.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments
J. J. Lodder
2024-08-25 08:34:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Anton Shepelev
Please, amend your name in the From: header from
`jerryfriedman' to `Jerry Friedman'. It only takes a
minute yet saves many readers many an annoyance.
The use of pseudonyms in newsgroups is not unusual. If
jerry chooses not to reveal his real name, that's his
privilege.
`jerryfriedman' is hardly a pseudonym, but rather a
unconventional spelling of a real name. It is not to the
use of pseudonyms that I object to, but to this unjusttified
and unreasonable spelling. IIRC, Jerry himself admitted
that his new display name is not a deliberate (and
delibetated) choice and that he did not felt the amendment
woth the time & effort. I beg pardon if I misremembered.
Some good psedunyms are: Snidely, lar3ryca, Mack A. Damia,
occam, and they belong to great posters, too.
And who are you, to be the judge of other people's nyms?

Jan
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-25 10:32:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
And who are you, to be the judge of other people's nyms?
I be the measure of all things (and so are you).
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments
Sam Plusnet
2024-08-25 17:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by J. J. Lodder
And who are you, to be the judge of other people's nyms?
I be the measure of all things (and so are you).
As far as we can tell, you are the only one who has an objection to how
Jerry announces himself.
You could have quite reasonably stated your own view on the matter, and
left it at that.
Instead you claimed to speak on behalf of "many readers" - and thereby
creating a negative reaction.
The point I am trying to make here is that your methods and your aims
are at odds with each other.
--
Sam Plusnet
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-25 22:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
As far as we can tell, you are the only one who has an
objection to how Jerry announces himself.
Indeed, I have not seen the objection from anybody else.
Post by Sam Plusnet
You could have quite reasonably stated your own view on
the matter, and left it at that. Instead you claimed to
speak on behalf of "many readers" -- and thereby creating
a negative reaction.
I assumed (perhaps erroneously) that meany readers would
prefer `Jerry Friendman' to `jerryfriendman'.
Post by Sam Plusnet
The point I am trying to make here is that your methods
and your aims are at odds with each other.
That is my problem, especially with matters aesthetical.
Although tastes differ greatly, I am convinced that good
taste and bad taste are objective categories, however hard
to define. For a simple example, people with good taste in
classical music may disagree about the relative merits of
Furtwangler and Weingartner.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments
Tony Cooper
2024-08-26 04:31:55 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 26 Aug 2024 01:28:45 +0300, Anton Shepelev
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by Sam Plusnet
As far as we can tell, you are the only one who has an
objection to how Jerry announces himself.
Indeed, I have not seen the objection from anybody else.
Post by Sam Plusnet
You could have quite reasonably stated your own view on
the matter, and left it at that. Instead you claimed to
speak on behalf of "many readers" -- and thereby creating
a negative reaction.
I assumed (perhaps erroneously) that meany readers would
prefer `Jerry Friendman' to `jerryfriendman'.
Is there is no "n" in this discussion!
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by Sam Plusnet
The point I am trying to make here is that your methods
and your aims are at odds with each other.
That is my problem, especially with matters aesthetical.
Although tastes differ greatly, I am convinced that good
taste and bad taste are objective categories, however hard
to define. For a simple example, people with good taste in
classical music may disagree about the relative merits of
Furtwangler and Weingartner.
Tony Cooper
2024-08-26 04:44:55 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 26 Aug 2024 00:31:55 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 26 Aug 2024 01:28:45 +0300, Anton Shepelev
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by Sam Plusnet
As far as we can tell, you are the only one who has an
objection to how Jerry announces himself.
Indeed, I have not seen the objection from anybody else.
Post by Sam Plusnet
You could have quite reasonably stated your own view on
the matter, and left it at that. Instead you claimed to
speak on behalf of "many readers" -- and thereby creating
a negative reaction.
I assumed (perhaps erroneously) that meany readers would
prefer `Jerry Friendman' to `jerryfriendman'.
Is there is no "n" in this discussion!
Skitt's Law endures. In correcting Anton's error, I made the error of
an extra "is".
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by Sam Plusnet
The point I am trying to make here is that your methods
and your aims are at odds with each other.
That is my problem, especially with matters aesthetical.
Although tastes differ greatly, I am convinced that good
taste and bad taste are objective categories, however hard
to define. For a simple example, people with good taste in
classical music may disagree about the relative merits of
Furtwangler and Weingartner.
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-26 09:41:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Anton Shepelev
I assumed (perhaps erroneously) that meany readers would
prefer `Jerry Friendman' to `jerryfriendman'.
Is there is no "n" in this discussion!
A double Freudian typo, for I typed both instances by hand
and finger. Also, "/meany/ readers"...
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
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Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-08-26 05:37:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
That is my problem, especially with matters aesthetical.
Although tastes differ greatly, I am convinced that good
taste and bad taste are objective categories, however hard
to define.
It's not hard to define. Good taste is what I like, and bad taste is
what I don't like.

That's about as objective as you can get.
Post by Anton Shepelev
For a simple example, people with good taste in
classical music may disagree about the relative merits of
Furtwangler and Weingartner.
How do they feel about Frank Zappa?
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Hibou
2024-08-26 07:35:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Anton Shepelev
That is my problem, especially with matters aesthetical.
Although tastes differ greatly, I am convinced that good
taste and bad taste are objective categories, however hard
to define.
It's not hard to define. Good taste is what I like, and bad taste is
what I don't like.
That's about as objective as you can get.
Post by Anton Shepelev
For a simple example, people with good taste in
classical music may disagree about the relative merits of
Furtwangler and Weingartner.
How do they feel about Frank Zappa?
They zap him?
Snidely
2024-08-26 07:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Lo, on the 8/25/2024, Bertel Lund Hansen did proclaim ...
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Anton Shepelev
That is my problem, especially with matters aesthetical.
Although tastes differ greatly, I am convinced that good
taste and bad taste are objective categories, however hard
to define.
It's not hard to define. Good taste is what I like, and bad taste is
what I don't like.
That's about as objective as you can get.
Post by Anton Shepelev
For a simple example, people with good taste in
classical music may disagree about the relative merits of
Furtwangler and Weingartner.
How do they feel about Frank Zappa?
His classical work isn't as well known as Reich's, but it is Good
Stuff. Sir Paul doesn't do too badly, either, but more as light
classical -- bon bons. Zappa, however, had the background before
becoming famous ... IIRC, and the bicycle piece is offered in evidence.

/dps
--
"That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"

" Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
-njm
Janet
2024-08-26 13:09:38 UTC
Permalink
In article <20240826012845.1e8459dc31f6238b93313271
@gmail.moc>, ***@gmail.moc says...
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by Sam Plusnet
As far as we can tell, you are the only one who has an
objection to how Jerry announces himself.
Indeed, I have not seen the objection from anybody else.
Post by Sam Plusnet
You could have quite reasonably stated your own view on
the matter, and left it at that. Instead you claimed to
speak on behalf of "many readers" -- and thereby creating
a negative reaction.
I assumed (perhaps erroneously) that meany readers would
prefer `Jerry Friendman' to `jerryfriendman'.
We're happy to see Jerry Friedman OR jerryfriedman.

Nhere's no N in Friedman. The only person spelling his
name wrong is you.

Janet
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-26 14:30:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Anton Shepelev
I assumed (perhaps erroneously) that meany readers would
prefer `Jerry Friendman' to `jerryfriendman'.
Nhere's no N in Friedman. The only person spelling his
name wrong is you.
No, there /is/ a single `n' if `Friedman'; and no, I am /not/
spelling Jerry's surname with two 'n's. The instance
quoted above is just a typo.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments
Peter Moylan
2024-08-26 00:10:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
And who are you, to be the judge of other people's nyms?
For a minute there I was wondering how hymns entered the discussion.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
jerryfriedman
2024-08-24 13:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Anton Shepelev
Similarly, I had read some fifty or so pages of /Worm
Ouroboros/ before I realised that "or ever" means
1. We can surprise Witchland in his strong place of
Carce, sack it, and give him to the crows to peck
at, or ever he is well awake to the swiftness of
our answer.
[...]
I'm sure it took me quite a few pages too. That "or" is a
variant of "ere", as you may know.
I thought `ere' was a variant of `ever', not of `or', and
Otherwise [if we do not surprise them at Carce]
he /will/ be well awake to our answer.
If `or' is `ere' as you and dictinaries say, what is the
role of `ever' in `or ever' -- that of emphasis?
Yes. The OED says,


c1400–
Added for emphasis to the temporal conjunctions as soon as,
so soon as, before, ere (see ere conj. C.1d). when ever (just
as soon as): see whenever conj. A.2.

"c1400 (?c1380)
Schal I efte forgo hit er euer I fyne?
Pearl l. 328

a1413 (c1385)

"His herte hym wel byhight, She wolde come as soone as euere
she myghte.
G. Chaucer, Troilus & Criseyde (Pierpont Morgan MS.) (1882) v. l. 511
..

Most part of all which M. Arthur and I saw, before euer we either
eate, drunke, or tooke our lodging in Venice.
W. Lithgow, Totall Discourse Trauayles i. 38"
Post by Anton Shepelev
Please, amend your name in the From: header from
`jerryfriedman' to `Jerry Friedman'. It only takes a minute
yet saves many readers many an annoyance.
I can't do it with this Web interface. Getting Thunderbird to
work again would take quite a bit more than a minute, and I'm
not going to try it any time soon.

--
Jerry Friedman
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-24 14:35:40 UTC
Permalink
[X-post added: rocksolid.shared.general]
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Anton Shepelev
Please, amend your name in the From: header from
`jerryfriedman' to `Jerry Friedman'. It only takes a
minute yet saves many readers many an annoyance.
I can't do it with this Web interface.
Dear Retro Guy, can you please help Jerry to setup the
normal spelling of his name in the From: header, if he so
desires?
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments
Retro Guy
2024-08-24 21:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
[X-post added: rocksolid.shared.general]
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Anton Shepelev
Please, amend your name in the From: header from
`jerryfriedman' to `Jerry Friedman'. It only takes a
minute yet saves many readers many an annoyance.
I can't do it with this Web interface.
Dear Retro Guy, can you please help Jerry to setup the
normal spelling of his name in the From: header, if he so
desires?
You can do this on your Configuration page:
https://news.novabbs.org/spoolnews/user.php

Set your 'Display Name' and 'Display Email'.

Don't forget to re-enter your password at the bottom when saving your
config.
--
Retro Guy
Jerry Friedman
2024-08-25 03:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Retro Guy
Post by Anton Shepelev
[X-post added: rocksolid.shared.general]
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Anton Shepelev
Please, amend your name in the From: header from
`jerryfriedman' to `Jerry Friedman'. It only takes a
minute yet saves many readers many an annoyance.
I can't do it with this Web interface.
Dear Retro Guy, can you please help Jerry to setup the
normal spelling of his name in the From: header, if he so
desires?
https://news.novabbs.org/spoolnews/user.php
Set your 'Display Name' and 'Display Email'.
Don't forget to re-enter your password at the bottom when saving your
config.
Thank you, Retro Guy!

--
Jerry Friedman
--
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2024-08-25 03:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Retro Guy
Post by Anton Shepelev
[X-post added: rocksolid.shared.general]
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Anton Shepelev
Please, amend your name in the From: header from
`jerryfriedman' to `Jerry Friedman'. It only takes a
minute yet saves many readers many an annoyance.
I can't do it with this Web interface.
Dear Retro Guy, can you please help Jerry to setup the
normal spelling of his name in the From: header, if he so
desires?
https://news.novabbs.org/spoolnews/user.php
Set your 'Display Name' and 'Display Email'.
Don't forget to re-enter your password at the bottom when saving your
config.
Thank you, Retro Guy!
And thank you, Anton!

(I guess the sig works.)
--
--
Jerry Friedman
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-25 10:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
And thank you, Anton!
Congratulations on restoring your proper name, Jerry.
Post by Jerry Friedman
(I guess the sig works.)
--
--
Jerry Friedman
Not quite: the signature separator is duplicated. Perhaps
Rocksolid is insering one automatally, and you should not
specify it yourself a second time.
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Retro Guy
2024-08-25 11:51:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by Jerry Friedman
And thank you, Anton!
Congratulations on restoring your proper name, Jerry.
Post by Jerry Friedman
(I guess the sig works.)
--
--
Jerry Friedman
Not quite: the signature separator is duplicated. Perhaps
Rocksolid is insering one automatally, and you should not
specify it yourself a second time.
This is the caze. It is inserted automatically.

And, glad you found config :)
Jerry Friedman
2024-08-25 13:30:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Retro Guy
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by Jerry Friedman
And thank you, Anton!
Congratulations on restoring your proper name, Jerry.
Post by Jerry Friedman
(I guess the sig works.)
--
--
Jerry Friedman
Not quite: the signature separator is duplicated. Perhaps
Rocksolid is insering one automatally, and you should not
specify it yourself a second time.
This is the caze. It is inserted automatically.
And, glad you found config :)
Thanks again. Should have been obvious.
--
Jerry Friedman
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-26 15:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Retro Guy
Post by Anton Shepelev
Dear Retro Guy, can you please help Jerry to setup the
normal spelling of his name in the From: header, if he
so desires?
https://news.novabbs.org/spoolnews/user.php
Now Jerry seems to post from two different accounts, one with
his correct display name, and the other with the old one,
e.g.:

as jerryfriedman : <***@www.novabbs.com>
as Jerry Friedman: <***@www.novabbs.org>

Can this have to do with your keeing more than one web
gateway to Usenet, i.e. the .com and .org websites? They
seem to confuse users...
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Retro Guy
2024-08-26 20:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by Retro Guy
Post by Anton Shepelev
Dear Retro Guy, can you please help Jerry to setup the
normal spelling of his name in the From: header, if he
so desires?
https://news.novabbs.org/spoolnews/user.php
Now Jerry seems to post from two different accounts, one with
his correct display name, and the other with the old one,
Can this have to do with your keeing more than one web
gateway to Usenet, i.e. the .com and .org websites? They
seem to confuse users...
They are two different servers with two different user databases.

He'll need to make the same change on the other server to change his
username.

jerryfriedman
2024-08-17 04:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Hello, all.
All my life I wondered about the morphology of
`nevertheless' and how it is related to its meaning: why
`never', and what does `the' refer to, for it looks like a
part of a double comparison, &c. Now I understand, for on
this morning's commute I encoutered the following passage in
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves
not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is never the less
for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance with
the morphology: the author's survival does not abate the
assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as adverb) is
essentially the same, if a bit less explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate error)
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves not strong
enough to kill me, his guilt is nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
From
Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger and Clemency, by Lucius
Annaeus Seneca, Translated by Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669)
(Project Gutenberg Etext)
Then Project Gutenberg has made a mistake. The version with "never the
less" makes sense. The sentence you quote makes no sense at all.
I'm afraid that it is too late to inform Sir Roger about your views.
Does anyone here have access to a good library to verify
what he actually wrote?
You didn't see my post with a link to a scan of a 1679 printing?

https://books.google.com/books?id=865kAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA201

Where did you get the date of 1669? Other sources, such as
the following, say the part with "never the less" was
printed in 1679, in which case my link was to a scan of
the first printing.

https://books.google.com/books?id=aU9BDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA108&dq=%22three+parts+gathered+into+one,+with%22

Of course we'll probably never know what Sir Roger wrote,
just what the printer printed.

--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2024-08-17 08:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Hello, all.
All my life I wondered about the morphology of
`nevertheless' and how it is related to its meaning: why
`never', and what does `the' refer to, for it looks like a
part of a double comparison, &c. Now I understand, for on
this morning's commute I encoutered the following passage in
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves
not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is never the less
for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance with
the morphology: the author's survival does not abate the
assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as adverb) is
essentially the same, if a bit less explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate error)
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves not strong
enough to kill me, his guilt is nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
From
Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger and Clemency, by Lucius
Annaeus Seneca, Translated by Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669)
(Project Gutenberg Etext)
Then Project Gutenberg has made a mistake. The version with "never the
less" makes sense. The sentence you quote makes no sense at all.
I'm afraid that it is too late to inform Sir Roger about your views.
Does anyone here have access to a good library to verify
what he actually wrote?
You didn't see my post with a link to a scan of a 1679 printing?
Indeed, I didn't. Having lost Eternal September,
my newsfeed has become sadly incomplete.
Post by jerryfriedman
https://books.google.com/books?id=865kAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA201
Where did you get the date of 1669?
Wikipedia says:
===
L'Estrange now turned to writing again, and published translations of
Seneca the Younger's Morals and Cicero's Offices, besides his
master-work of this period, Fables of Aesop and Other Eminent
Mythologists (1669).[31]
===
So it is not conclusive for this date.
Post by jerryfriedman
Other sources, such as
the following, say the part with "never the less" was
printed in 1679, in which case my link was to a scan of
the first printing.
https://books.google.com/books?id=aU9BDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA108&dq=%22three+parts+gath
ered+into+one,+with%22

Alas, the page break voids any definitive conclusion
that one might want to draw.
Post by jerryfriedman
Of course we'll probably never know what Sir Roger wrote,
just what the printer printed.
Yes, and printing conventions were different at the time,
with those repeated words,

Jan
jerryfriedman
2024-08-17 14:28:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Anton Shepelev
Hello, all.
All my life I wondered about the morphology of
`nevertheless' and how it is related to its meaning: why
`never', and what does `the' refer to, for it looks like a
part of a double comparison, &c. Now I understand, for on
this morning's commute I encoutered the following passage in
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves
not strong enough to kill me, his guilt is never the less
for the disappointment.
The usage above is literal and in complete accordance with
the morphology: the author's survival does not abate the
assassin's guilt. The modern usage (as adverb) is
essentially the same, if a bit less explicit in structure.
Your version just has a misprint. (or a deliberate error)
===
Suppose a man gives me a draught of poison and it proves not strong
enough to kill me, his guilt is nevertheless for the disappointment.
===
From
Seneca's Morals of a Happy Life, Benefits, Anger and Clemency, by Lucius
Annaeus Seneca, Translated by Sir Roger L'Estrange (1669)
(Project Gutenberg Etext)
Then Project Gutenberg has made a mistake. The version with "never the
less" makes sense. The sentence you quote makes no sense at all.
I'm afraid that it is too late to inform Sir Roger about your views.
Does anyone here have access to a good library to verify
what he actually wrote?
You didn't see my post with a link to a scan of a 1679 printing?
Indeed, I didn't. Having lost Eternal September,
my newsfeed has become sadly incomplete.
How annoying.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by jerryfriedman
https://books.google.com/books?id=865kAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA201
Where did you get the date of 1669?
===
L'Estrange now turned to writing again, and published translations of
Seneca the Younger's Morals and Cicero's Offices, besides his
master-work of this period, Fables of Aesop and Other Eminent
Mythologists (1669).[31]
===
So it is not conclusive for this date.
Definitely not. The chronology of that part of the Wikiparticle is
messed up anyway.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by jerryfriedman
Other sources, such as
the following, say the part with "never the less" was
printed in 1679, in which case my link was to a scan of
the first printing.
https://books.google.com/books?id=aU9BDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA108&dq=%22three+parts+gath
ered+into+one,+with%22
Alas, the page break voids any definitive conclusion
that one might want to draw.
I don't see a page break. Someone must have decided that
Dutch people didn't deserve a view of that page. Anyway,
you can look for other sources for the date if you want, or I
could send you a screenshot of what I see.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by jerryfriedman
Of course we'll probably never know what Sir Roger wrote,
just what the printer printed.
Yes, and printing conventions were different at the time,
with those repeated words,
But I didn't realize that the spelling of the time was so
modern.

--
Jerry Friedman
Anton Shepelev
2024-08-22 09:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Indeed, I didn't. Having lost Eternal September, my
newsfeed has become sadly incomplete.
E.-S. is up and running (I am posting through it). The
article archive has not been lost, and Ray (the admin)
is working on putting it back online.
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